I've been slowly working my way through TSR advice on planar gaming.
Mentzer's Companion Set has some rudimentary, but functional, advice on the Ether and Elemental planes. There's not a lot to go on there, but as a kid, I felt it was enough that I could riff off of for planar adventures.
The Mentzer Master Set, however, gives some information on Immortals and Artifacts, and adds to the planar monster roster, but doesn't actually give much good advice about the Outer Planes (something advertised in the Companion Set). As such, as a kid reading these books I always felt a bit hesitant to do much with the Outer Planes. I was familiar with the Great Wheel of AD&D, but Mentzer suggested a different type of Outer Planes which intrigued me, but there was never enough stuff for me to really dig into the implications.
I only acquired the Immortal Set a couple of years ago, and was reading up on the Outer Planes the last two days. Hmm. It definitely sets things up in a more interesting fashion than the Great Wheel, with an infinite number of possible planes, weird planar intersections, and planes hidden behind other planes. But there's too much focus on statistical measurements (how big, how many stars/planets within, how many dimensions, what mix of the five Spheres or the four elements) and not enough examples of what a plane might be like on the inside. And from a straight reading, each one is just a mundane little pocket universe. A limited area of space with stars, planets, etc. within. Maybe those planets are unlike anything in our universe, but they're still planets. No vast infinite plains of blood-soaked land under an ominous orange sky. No paradise of solid clouds. No M.C. Escher-esque mind-bending realms. Or rather, you could have them, but the game implies just lots of Class M planets to explore.
AD&D is interesting. In the PHB, we get a basic rundown of the planar geography of the Great Wheel. We get a few notes on adventuring in planar realms, plus encounter charts, in the DMG. But not that much. I don't have the Manual of the Planes in hard copy, so I haven't dug into that yet. That's gonna have to wait until I get a bunch of assignments graded, and Halloween costumes finished. But I will. But just from the core books, there's a bit to spur your imagination, but not much.
Anyway, while I can appreciate the need for all the statistics and discussion of how 3- or 4-dimensional beings interact with 6-dimensional spaces, the Immortal Set is a bit of a let down. AD&D without the MotP is also a let down.
Why is it so hard to come up with good material for outer planes? Is it just that the game designers didn't want to infringe on DMs' imaginations? But the Great Wheel suggests otherwise. I guess I'll need to find some time to read the MotP, and later get into some 2E Planescape stuff to get a better grasp on what TSR thought planar adventures should be like.
I haven't run much in the way of planar adventures, but I rebel against too many details handed down from the Corporation. Infinity means that whatever I say, goes. No piddly little 2,000 year old elf can hand my players a table telling them planar "facts." The term is Dungeon MASTER. :-)
ReplyDeleteThat's true, but sometimes, a bit of inspiration from the people who supposedly know what all this stuff is about would be nice for some people. Looking back to how I reacted to the Companion and Masters set info, and to what snippets of the planes I got from AD&D as a kid, it just wasn't enough.
DeleteAnd the problem is actually less "what are the planes like" but more "what adventures do you do on the planes?" I mean, sure, there can be a dungeon full of monsters and treasure, but then why did we travel all this way at possibly great hazard and expense, when we could have just gone to the dungeon in the next kingdom?
"get into some 2E Planescape stuff to get a better grasp on what TSR thought planar adventures should be like. "
ReplyDeletePlanescape provided a great vibe but I don't remember ever finding any of the published adventures of any use whatsoever.
There were a few d20 books that were pretty good for ideas in the planes.
ReplyDeleteI remember McComb/Cook/Baur's Beyond Countless Doorways and The Classic Play Book of the Planes as being pretty decent to good material. I keep blending the ideas from them in my mind, but there were some enticing ideas in them.
@John -- I have a couple of the Masters level modules with some planar travel in hard copy. I should look through those. And I will get to the Planescape stuff eventually. I just hope 2E Sigil isn't as boring as the 5E presentation made it sound.
ReplyDelete@gmkeros - Thanks for the suggestions. I'll try to track down copies on the internet.
I would not recommend the Manual of the Planes: as a youth, I really wanted this book (looks fantastic, right?) but having acquired it a few years back I found it quite underwhelming (sorry Jeff Grubb). Not much "game-able" content, and much of the planar descriptions are about what I'd expect you or I or any halfway creative blogger to come up with. Feels very "phoned in."
ReplyDeleteA better AD&D resource is Deities & Demigods (aka Legends & Lore), which gives a tad more info than the core books, good info on the astral plane and afterlife travels, and an idea of the populations of various planes (based on which deities are there and who their servitors/minions might be).
Some AD&D modules (like Q1) and even some B/X modules (I'm thinking X2) gives some cool ideas about what is possible with regard to extradimensional travel.
BECMI is quite different in comparison, and Mentzer's take on the planes (especially the Immortal rules) are interesting but...for me...a bit soulless and mechanical. The Master set modules I own are fairly linear/railroady affairs, but a couple of the later Immortal modules offer some tantalizing ideas. Aaron Allston's "Wrath of the Immortals" (his rework of the "I" part of BECMI) is *not* recommended...it cuts out all the "weird" of Mentzer's original and adds very banal fantasy elements (perhaps to streamline and make it more compatible with the RC).
Be sure you're not neglecting old Dragon magazine articles on the various planes. A lot of good stuff/ideas in the older (pre-#100) issues. Check the DragonDex on-line for specific issues...they're all available at the annaarchive for viewing.
It's funny. I was reading a bit of my PDF copy of MotP last night. So far, some smart, gameable tidbits (all Outer Planes are basically conducive to Prime life, for example), and a few oddities (magic weapons/armor lose plusses the more planes you travel through, further gimping high level Fighters in favor of Magic-Users). Although that last does give a purpose to an adventure on an Outer Plane: trying to find magic weaponry native to that plane so you can actually fight competently against the plane's inhabitants.
DeleteI think I'll peruse it a bit more before I make my next post. And eventually I'll get to third party d20 supplements and Dragon magazines, and stuff like that.