tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5255299705122830812.post8685743287016963343..comments2024-03-28T21:13:43.603+09:00Comments on What a Horrible Night to Have a Curse...: The Action Economy is a Bad ConceptDennis Laffeyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03053699552003336733noreply@blogger.comBlogger19125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5255299705122830812.post-47422836446954575102024-02-25T10:30:49.729+09:002024-02-25T10:30:49.729+09:00necro - I think DnD is a tactical combat game prim...necro - I think DnD is a tactical combat game primarily. NTTAWWT It always has been. If I hosted a dnd game, Id make sure to use a hex grid, figures, and ALL THE RULES, because the totality of the rules is what makes the action economy and class-crafting most relevant during play. OR, if that wasnt my groups cup of tea, Id choose a different ruleset. Otherwise youre comparing apples and oranges. You have to evaluate action-economy in the context of a tactical combat gameStefoidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10397166922519881926noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5255299705122830812.post-85482337493573729822020-01-19T23:13:17.354+09:002020-01-19T23:13:17.354+09:00I seem to have touched a nerve. And I think you...I seem to have touched a nerve. And I think you're misreading my post. I'm not arguing that system mastery is bad. I'm saying that people appear to be conflating efficiency/exploitability of the action economy with good game design. But that is only the case if combat is all the game is about, and the only factor that needs to be considered in class design or character building. Nowhere did I claim that optimization and roleplay/immersion are opposed. You are in fact putting words in my mouth there, and getting upset (apparently) about it. <br /><br />Also, at least one of the points you make above is cherry picking my words to remove the context and then arguing that I'm an idiot for the way that it sounds out of context. <br /><br />You quote me then say: <br />"Too many people are looking at and evaluating game mechanics and more importantly game play..."<br />...are you actually serious? What? You're saying that too many people care about gameplay...in A GAME.<br />Do you know what a game is? <br /><br />Did you fail to read the rest of the sentence quoted here? Of course we evaluate games by the mechanics and game play. <br /><br />Add the remainder of the sentence in: "based primarily on how well a class or build takes advantage of the action economy." <br /><br />Now reconsider your position. I argued here that evaluating D&D game play SOLELY BY ACTION ECONOMY is a problem. You seem to have missed that point. <br /><br />There may be more, but it's late and I need to get to bed. Feel free to respond, and if I'm interpreting your words wrong, please let me know what I got wrong. I'll try to address your other points later.Dennis Laffeyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03053699552003336733noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5255299705122830812.post-64739265223987090392020-01-18T05:54:39.545+09:002020-01-18T05:54:39.545+09:00Perhaps what you take issue with is not so much th...Perhaps what you take issue with is not so much that some characters are less effective than others, but the hostile attitudes that can develop among players when this is the case. I apologize if I am putting words in your mouth. That's understandable. We would most likely agree that 5e is not as well-balanced as it could be, though likely for very different reasons. As an aside, I find it irritating that I cannot edit my posts.Art Izonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14668069151283736146noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5255299705122830812.post-23125314766958839122020-01-18T05:45:13.605+09:002020-01-18T05:45:13.605+09:00To clarify (because there is a character limit on ...To clarify (because there is a character limit on comments), I'm not so much defending 5e as much as I'm saying your argumentation supporting your position on it is really, *really* bad. Am I expecting too much, wishing for a thorough breakdown of your entire design philosophy and how 5e conflicts with it? Because that's what I'd like to see.Art Izonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14668069151283736146noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5255299705122830812.post-44904881752063633082020-01-18T05:40:40.555+09:002020-01-18T05:40:40.555+09:00This is great and all, but you haven't explain...This is great and all, but you haven't explained why/how it's somehow bad to reward system mastery over creativity/immersion. You speak like it's self-evident, which strikes me as...poorly-thought-through. Why is being good at something not equally commendable, if not outright superior?<br />Let's work through some claims you make in this article.<br />"If you don't take full advantage of the action economy, if you don't take a class that makes use of bonus actions and reactions, if you squander your turn, it's seen as letting down the side. Not pulling your weight. Being lame and useless. Totally sucking at the game."<br />Correct. Why is this a problem? Is this an accessibility issue? From what angle are you approaching this? By what principles do you take issue with this? You haven't elaborated on your perspective beyond what amounts to "I don't like it," which is perfectly fine, but much of the article is phrased as a statement of fact.<br />"Why WotC decided to limit their design of 5E to mimicking a computer RPG is beyond me."<br />Your use of the word "limit" here is poisoning the well. You are assuming that mimicking a computer RPG is an inherently worse design decision while providing no justification for such a position.<br />"I mean, shouldn't they have learned their lesson from doing that with 4E?"<br />Appeal to a popular position, again with no evidence (you could argue that it sold worse, if it did, or that it performed worse on surveys, but 5e is by far the most popular iteration of the game yet so I assume such an approach would not lead to a position that holds much water).<br />"Too many people are looking at and evaluating game mechanics and more importantly game play..."<br />...are you actually serious? What? You're saying that too many people care about gameplay...in A GAME. <br />Do you know what a game is? <br />A game is a scenario with one or more players, win/loss conditions, actions the players can take, and rules that govern these actions as well as reaching the win/loss conditions. That's it. Gameplay is *all games have,* intrinsically. Anything else is necessarily fluff. While some of the other things I may have posted in my reply are up for debate, this isn't, unless you can come up with another way to create such a category that encompasses every existing game. Evaluation, by its very nature, requires a measuring stick.<br />"And the attitude I'm seeing more and more is that if your character isn't taking advantage of bonus actions and reactions as often as possible, you did something wrong or are playing wrong."<br />Consequently, this is a correct attitude -- because you can do whatever roleplaying things you want in conjunction with efficient play. The conclusion of your post is an excellent example of the stormwind fallacy: https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/22250/what-is-the-stormwind-fallacy In short, the notion that gameplay and narrative (or more specifically in tabletop RPGs, roleplay and optimization) are somehow magically diametrically opposed despite essentially being entirely different, non-intersecting planes. You can roleplay poorly, and you can handle combat poorly. Those are both true things, in the same system.<br />I apologize if at any point I come off as condescending, but I must say, I find your viewpoint not only disagreeable but entirely untenable -- illogical, even, based on an imaginary version of reality where 5e works the way you say it does and roleplay/immersion and optimization somehow magically *are* diametrically opposed. Another issue might be the way the word "immersion" gets thrown around without anyone having a decent, workable understanding of what it actually means, but that's something for another time.Art Izonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14668069151283736146noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5255299705122830812.post-82722161860904616892019-06-01T11:11:15.748+09:002019-06-01T11:11:15.748+09:00FrDave (and anyone else interested), here's th...FrDave (and anyone else interested), here's the response to the video ranking the classes:<br /><br />https://lordgwydion.blogspot.com/2019/06/a-response-to-esper-bards-5e-class.htmlDennis Laffeyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03053699552003336733noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5255299705122830812.post-83542093509690896492019-05-31T06:16:40.858+09:002019-05-31T06:16:40.858+09:00Ah, I like that train of thought (the Charisma fac...Ah, I like that train of thought (the Charisma factor). I need to consider it a bit more. Thanks for sharing that. Dennis Laffeyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03053699552003336733noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5255299705122830812.post-11288073017523508702019-05-31T01:58:08.853+09:002019-05-31T01:58:08.853+09:00Actually, consider this: the action economy PCs in...Actually, consider this: the action economy PCs in pre-3e D&D is based on their Charisma, ranging in ordinary circumstances from 2-8 actions per round, with most of their capability represented by their retinue.Joshua L. Lylehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03358762663581842879noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5255299705122830812.post-15173182856486338662019-05-31T00:45:12.258+09:002019-05-31T00:45:12.258+09:00Thanks for the thoughtful reply. I share your conc...Thanks for the thoughtful reply. I share your concerns about the over-emphasis on this form of analysis in 5e, and most certainly agree with the virtue of providing classes (or other options, however specified) that are simple to play.<br /><br />To further complicate things, I would say that real analysis of the action economy of D&D across versions must engage with Haste, which, in most cases, allows you to in effect move twice and do two things, but not two of all of the things you could do when you could do one thing. Nonetheless, the ability to do two things is so powerful when you could previously do one thing that it could be said to have driven the entire rest of the development of the action economy of later editions.Joshua L. Lylehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03358762663581842879noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5255299705122830812.post-24288186499879578362019-05-30T06:52:02.259+09:002019-05-30T06:52:02.259+09:00True, it is an action economy. But since the choic...True, it is an action economy. But since the choices are limited to act/don't act, old school D&D was never analyzed that way. <br /><br />And you're also right that action economy is a way to analyze the rules and performance. Nothing in the rules of 5E states that you must try to use every possible action every round. That would be silly. But people analyze the rules, and come to the realization that optimal efficiency means attempting to optimize every turn by not wasting an opportunity to act. <br /><br />But sometimes, for tactical (practical) purposes or for in character (role play) purposes, it can be better to hold certain options in a particular combat round. <br /><br />And, considering the analysis of classes in the video I was watching, sometimes having a simple class without a ton of options to sort through every round can be a positive as well. The game can slow down when a spellcaster has to analyze their spell slots remaining, spell lists, and special abilities every round to try and maximize getting an action/bonus action/reaction every round.<br /><br />The title of this post is a bit click-baity, isn't it? :D Action economy analysis will exist whether I like it or not. Dennis Laffeyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03053699552003336733noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5255299705122830812.post-45785934297610664702019-05-30T06:44:54.646+09:002019-05-30T06:44:54.646+09:00I could get into that, too. I could get into that, too. Dennis Laffeyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03053699552003336733noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5255299705122830812.post-37506920003792647362019-05-30T04:48:16.899+09:002019-05-30T04:48:16.899+09:00I object to the characterization that pre-3e D&...I object to the characterization that pre-3e D&D didn't have an action economy. It did. It was merely a very simple economy. Of course, there is much to recommend a simple action economy!<br /><br />"Action economy" is is less a rule than a particular way of analyzing rules.Joshua L. Lylehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03358762663581842879noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5255299705122830812.post-79222309726652749812019-05-30T02:13:30.910+09:002019-05-30T02:13:30.910+09:00So, a campaign with all mundane classes, no magic ...So, a campaign with all mundane classes, no magic and no healing spells? Sounds fun to me...FrDavehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00459281821319914530noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5255299705122830812.post-61236569353787556622019-05-30T02:10:34.300+09:002019-05-30T02:10:34.300+09:00Does lethal equal Interesting?
In a word: Yes. Fe...<i>Does lethal equal Interesting?</i><br /><br />In a word: Yes. Fear is a powerful emotion and lethality taps into that fear, especially when there is an atmosphere that has been established to feed that fear. Some of the best moments I have ever had playing RPGs are in D&D in combat because of the dread that comes with knowing what happens right here right now determines the life and death of these characters. This has happened across systems and with wildly different play groups. There is nothing like seeing an entire table on their feet celebrating <i>survival,</i> not just success. That is what I call immersion and emotional investment. <br /><br />BTW creativity in combat is a thing. I have had utility casters do wonderful things with spells in combat. I have also seen a party creatively use terrain to stop an entire army in its tracks.FrDavehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00459281821319914530noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5255299705122830812.post-81316634337921856092019-05-29T22:21:55.395+09:002019-05-29T22:21:55.395+09:00Does lethal equal interesting?
D&D in all its...Does lethal equal interesting?<br /><br />D&D in all its incarnations are among my least favorite games, one reason being combat. It is the focus of the game and as noted in the post, mostly a question of rules mastery and luck. <br /><br />At the same time it only feels, hmmm, 'mechanically deadly'. Does your PC fight or act any differently at 10 hp than they do at 100? Are the weakened? Any penalties or adjustments that make you the PC feel the atmosphere of their injuries?<br /><br />It just comes off as distant and removed. Combat is a tactical exercise more then an intense, visceral engagement with the game and ones fellow players. Creativity is put to the side and people worry whether they have the 'right move' for a particular instance. Adam Dicksteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04840144928096089178noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5255299705122830812.post-66902960084262985582019-05-29T20:56:52.706+09:002019-05-29T20:56:52.706+09:00I think that in some systems, like Palladium games...I think that in some systems, like Palladium games, they actually make an action economy work. Yes, there are some silly things, like EVERYONE and the mothers know Boxing since it grants one extra attack per round. How many people do you actually know who box? <br /><br />But in Palladium, the fact that each round you need to make a choice between how many actions to use for attacks or other actions, and how many to keep in reserve for potential parry/dodge reactions makes it work. No one will fault you for keeping a few unused actions because you never can be sure how many you may need.<br /><br />In 5E, your potential actions are fixed, so players (this is something I've witnessed firsthand) sometimes feel that they NEED to use them all. And classes that don't get bonus actions as a rule are worse than those that do. <br /><br />FrDave - he put the Fighter/Champion at the very bottom, other Fighter and Barbarian types low down. Anything with spells was high on the list.Dennis Laffeyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03053699552003336733noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5255299705122830812.post-43409860495317188612019-05-29T03:12:52.600+09:002019-05-29T03:12:52.600+09:00I wonder what classes this guy likes the least? Be...I wonder what classes this guy likes the least? Being a bit of a contrarian, I'd be sore tested to invite him to play in a 5e campaign built around the idea that his 3-4 least favorite classes were the only ones available. Maybe he'd see the value of the game outside action economy...<br /><br />JB: In my experience, 5e combat can be <i>very</i> lethal, especially at lower levels. Monsters hit <i>hard.</i> The first character I ever played died in his first combat...FrDavehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00459281821319914530noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5255299705122830812.post-60068580062433403682019-05-29T00:56:08.330+09:002019-05-29T00:56:08.330+09:00Whatever happened to the simple "everyone get...Whatever happened to the simple "everyone gets one 'go' per round...what do you want to do?"<br /><br />It might be that the need to make combat more interesting comes from the fact that combat LACKS interest due to the lack of tension and intensity. If battle were a more risky proposition, people would be more interested in the roll of the D20 and damage roll than on what particular maneuver is being tried. Maybe.JBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03263662621289630246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5255299705122830812.post-20638348114308926792019-05-27T02:25:28.159+09:002019-05-27T02:25:28.159+09:00When I was breaking out of the shell of AD&D, ...When I was breaking out of the shell of AD&D, I chafed at the restrictive nature of how combat was expressed. However, upon many years of reflection, the original spirit of Chainmail-based combat (60 second rounds where lethality is rather high until you have a few levels/HD under your belt) has completely been lost.<br /><br />Combat in O/A-D&D was an abstracted, grueling melee contest, where one side or the other was bested. In 3rd+ editions, they are playing a different game entirely.Mujadaddyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07698839746240695386noreply@blogger.com